Are you a thought leader?

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Welcome to How to Take the Lead the podcast where

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we challenge the myths and stereotypes of what it means to

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be a leader today and help you to succeed in post without

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compromise. I'm Lee Griffith

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Carrie-Ann Wade: and I'm Carrie Ann Wade and together we will be

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your guide questioning everything we've ever learned

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about leadership sharing our experiences along the way and

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inspiring you to make a real impact in your role. Visit how

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to

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take the lead.com For show notes, past episodes

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and join our community. Enjoy this episode. Hello, and welcome

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back to another episode of how to take the lead Episode Seven.

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We are going fast and furious free this well over

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Carrie-Ann Wade: halfway now. It's scary. Where's the series

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go into?

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Yeah, I know it is it is flown by like wily coyote

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in

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I honestly sometimes we do these episodes

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and I think where are we digging these references out from

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somewhere in the darkest depths of our minds? I actually can I

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say I was on a meeting earlier and I referenced Joe Pasquali.

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The meeting we're like okay, literally

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Carrie-Ann Wade: bad reference. Sorry, everyone. Coming out from

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all over the place.

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I don't know where that wily coyote I've literally

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haven't probably referenced that in in about 15 years. I used to

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like it cartoons so anyway. It just seems to come about maybe

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this is like my own Alan Partridge moment. And I like

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Chris record and like the cheesy references and the DJ voice and

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all of that just come in to DJ voice loving it. Because

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obviously I don't really sound like this in real life. I'm I

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speak the proper Queen's English.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: And there's never a lism to be found in real

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life. Oh, no, or a nice reference. So maybe that's a new

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podcast spin off. We could do just good nice references.

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Yeah, yeah. Anyway, we digress. Hello to

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everyone watching us on YouTube. We are over there. As usual, you

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can see us in all our story glory, we've come I promise you

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we do not coordinate are out of days. But we so often seem to I

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was gonna get one new day am I then about syncing up. But

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that's not one day,

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Carrie-Ann Wade: we will come in the only dress that we both have

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the same version of without telling each other and it will

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be mortifying, but we'll just have to sit in it for the sake

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of our YouTube viewers. Oh,

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at least to YouTube, we could go away. But

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it's rare. We both turn up for a co working day. And we were in

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class that we would really have to pop dance, John Lewis of

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other clothing retailers are available. So anyway, we are on

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YouTube, we are in your ears through whatever podcast

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platform you'd like to listen to your podcasts here. And we're on

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top step. And I've been really enjoying the little substack

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notes that we send out after each episode, this series

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because we put a few little extra bonuses in for people who

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are part of our paid community. And it's a good chance people to

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add their comments and thoughts and ask questions get our input

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into stuff that you're pondering in the leadership world. So

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yeah, all the links that you need for whatever it is you're

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interested in. Visit how to take lead.com

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Can I just say I feel like the substack

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shownotes with the bonus. Content has become like the new

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bonus episode of the podcast. Because we got obsessed with the

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bonus apps for a bit and then we don't do them now. But I feel

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like all that bonus is good to me. We

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don't do that. We literally did one. Yeah, one

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Yeah.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: But remember when we started and we did about

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like as many bonus episodes as we did actual episodes, like

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we're back again. But now I feel like we can channel all that

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extra stuff into the sub stack nights, which is quite exciting.

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Yeah,

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yeah, it's good. It's good, good little spot on.

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I mean, I'm really enjoying the blogging vibes of the olden

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days. So today's episode, I'm bringing up the word fought

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leadership, which we're not about the whole kind of

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corporate BS. And this does feel a little bit like we're veering

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into I mean, it is a phrase I've used It's a phrase I use with

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with other people because sick people seemingly know what it's

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about. But it's also one of those ones where you just think

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oh before luda

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Carrie-Ann Wade: well we'll get onto that because he's

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determined and a thought leader or not I

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said, so we want but it's for all of the thing

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about what it's called. I think the stuff that sits underneath

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it is really important, which is why we want to tackle it. And I

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suppose I want to kick off by saying, if you're Joe Bloggs or

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Josefina blogs or J blocks, whoever you might be whatever

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you identify us. And can you still be a thought leader? Or is

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it something that's the hierarchical thing? Like how do

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you define for leadership? was like,

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Is it just about what said, and you've got,

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I don't know where this is going, but I get what you're

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saying. Okay, how Yeah, regard

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can then can any? Tom, Dick and Harry, yeah.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: So I absolutely think that regardless of what

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your role or where you sit in the hierarchy of an

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organization, you can definitely be a thought leader. And I

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actually think, obviously, we reference healthcare a fair bit

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in our conversations, because I still work in it, and you

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obviously use it, but I think healthcare is probably a really

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good example of where you can have thought leaders who are not

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necessarily in kind of senior roles within an organization,

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because for me, it's about expertise. It's about the level

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of expertise that someone has on a specific subject matter or

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topic and the way in which then they can express that and talk

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about that and build trust in that space as someone who is the

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kind of go to person about X, Y, or Zed say, you know, for

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example, I might have people in my organization who are the

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experts in, you know, forensic mental health, for women and

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stuff, you know, so I just, I don't think you have to be a

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leader or a senior person to be a thought leader. So well, that

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leader kind of terminologies in there. For me, it definitely

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isn't about hierarchy, or what role you're in. It's about your

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area of expertise, and then what you might choose to do with that

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area of expertise, which I'm sure we'll talk a bit more about

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as we go on.

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Yeah. Okay. So let me ask you this, then. So if

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it's about your area of expertise, or is it about not

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what you do have it? Interest, but is it is it just general

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interest? Because my, my view, and maybe this is this the

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subtleties in how we're approaching the what is thought

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leadership is, you can be an expert, but you could be saying

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the same thing as 100 other people. For me, a thought leader

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is someone who brings something unique in their viewpoint to

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that topic. So they can be expert, but bring a different

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view, or an insight over and above what you can get through

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what everyone else is saying. And for me, it's that married

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with the way that person acts in an expose that they execute

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their role in a consistent way that that makes them a thought

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leader versus an expert in their field.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Yeah, I guess for me, they the bit is bout and

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we might come on to this as we talk through the conversation

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there. Well, maybe there doesn't have to be because there are

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some examples of where people are positioning themselves as

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thought leaders and I think really watching no about

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anything. But for me, there has to be a level of expertise or

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special interest. That is something that that person is

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bringing, it can't just be like, generically about everything in

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life for you are a thought leader because they really think

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that you are but I do get your point about you know, are you

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doing that in an innovative way? For example? Is there a level of

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innovation or difference or uniqueness in the way that you

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are putting forward your thoughts and opinions and

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evidence sometimes of the topic that you are you perceiving

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yourself to be an expert in so yeah, I do take I do take your

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point there. I don't disagree with Yeah,

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I think it is, for me, it's the it's the Are they

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helping to contribute different thinking? Are they challenging

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other people's thinking on a topic? So there's almost an

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equation here now isn't there there's expert plus uniqueness

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or different view equals thought leader.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Yes, there's something for me about some sort

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of evidence base or ability to I don't think justifies the right

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word, but that your argument for your different view is one that

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comes from a sound place and isn't just about having a

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different view for having a different view sake.

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okay with me so the equation is expert plus

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uniqueness over evidence equals thought leadership.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Do you know what you might have cracked it

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if you occasionally I think you're onto something every

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everybody is going to be quote in this equation. Now I can feel

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it. You're gonna go viral.

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Is that me doing 40 Leadership in Action.

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Yeah. Oh my god,

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we in some ways, like, what's in session type?

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being totally meta about our own point. Yeah, I love it. I love.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I also love that listeners will have heard

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it but viewers will have seen at the moment when that equation

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came good for you. Yeah.

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I was I've recently watched it, I was gonna

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do my job. I mean, this is a really old reference as well, my

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Johnny ball moment with my piece of paper with it all written

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down, because I have actually written down the equation I

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could

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Carrie-Ann Wade: tell. And it was the excitement you crack in

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the equation. I'm liking I'm liking that as the equation that

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we frame this conversation around and the context for

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thought leadership, for sure. Excellent.

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I mean, if my husband watches this, he's

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someone who, who likes to have a little play with an equation

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every now he's probably gonna have a lot to comment on.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: You're not professing to be an expert in

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equation. We feel like we've got a good one for the purposes of

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what we need it for.

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Anyway, bringing it back on, on topic. How does

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being a thought leader help you to be a leader?

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Good question. So I think there's something for

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me in this about being positioned as the expert. So we

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talked about that expertise. I think there's something there,

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then. And this is maybe about the how, which is what you were

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talking about, like, what's the difference that you're bringing

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in that actually, it can help you to earn trust and build

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trust with different groups of people, and earn some level of

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respect as a leader who knows what they're talking about, and

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is willing maybe to put themselves out there to share

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their thinking and their views around something, which I think

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is helpful in that trust and respect kind of space. And I

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think there's something around helping you to build your

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reputation. Yeah, there was an episode we did some time ago now

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about reputation management, where we were like, we're not

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talking about manipulating things and reputation management

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in this style of Malcolm Tucker, but we are talking about, you

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know, being a leader, you whether you like it or not, you

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will have some sort of reputation that is being built

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out there. And actually, being a thought leader, I think helps

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you to build that reputation in that space in which you want to

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be kind of known. Yeah, I would say, Yeah,

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reputation. It helps position your personal

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leadership brand. But I think reputation also from an

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organizational perspective, and the benefits that that an

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organization can gain from your thought leadership shouldn't be

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overlooked, because that is part of how they can attract other

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people to work there. Because they want to work alongside

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people who are doing great things. It's how they can

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attract maybe the right customers, or clients or whoever

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it is that they're serving, because they want to be at the

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cutting edge, or in that space of different thinking. And so

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reputation is how you can get more money and investment, how

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might it might impact your ratings and performance. So

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there's lots of different ways, it can have a really positive

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impact on you. And it's a way that you can differentiate

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yourself and your organization in that space. And

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I'm really pleased to put that bit in there

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about the organization as well, because I think and this may be

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true for some individuals, I think thought leadership can

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definitely be kind of pigeon holed into it's about people's

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ego, and about, about individuals wanting to, you

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know, build their own brand, and all of that kind of stuff. And

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actually, for me, the point you made about like it supporting

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your reputation, and therefore the reputation of your

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organization. For all of those reasons you've said and probably

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more, I think is really important kind of factor around

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our whole conversation about thought leadership and why it

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might be important. Yeah.

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So ego is an is an interesting word that you've

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brought up. And it leads me to my next area of exploration,

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which is, is thought leadership, I suppose is it's something that

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you just are and you can say you are? Or is it something that you

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can only be by being named by others? So do you have to

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actively position yourself as a thought leader? Or do you only

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become recognized as one if others define and deem you to be

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such?

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Carrie-Ann Wade: So I think that's an interesting one,

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because for me, there's a bit of both in the answer to that

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question. So I absolutely think other people have you have to be

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somebody Data other people are interested in hearing from and

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listening to, and potentially taking action on what you are

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saying. So I do think that other people will define you as a

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thought leader or not. Obviously, that can be quite a

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subjective thing. Because your opinion and the thoughts and

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viewpoint that you share will resonate with some people and

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not with others. And I'm sure we'll kind of talk a bit more

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about what that looks like, a bit later on. But I so I do

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think other people will and half do to some degree define you as

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a thought leader. That's the you know, the label that we're that

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we're going with, but I also think you there is an element of

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you positioning yourself as such, because as you quite

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rightly pointed out, at the start of the conversation there

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absolutely tons of people who are experts in what they do, but

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they are not all thought leaders. And often it hasn't

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happened by chance that somebody has been defined by someone

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else's a thought leader, because they are intentionally and

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actively putting themselves out there to share their opinions,

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their viewpoints, their thoughts on a certain topic. So I think

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you have to be doing it with intent to be able to kind of be

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in that space, because otherwise everyone would be a thought

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leader who is an expert in a particular field, and they are

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definitely not. So I think there is a bit of both happening

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there. That kind of ends up in somebody kind of then being in

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that position as a thought leader. Yeah.

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And you're right about it, the lens in which you

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and others are viewing you that can be seen as whether you are

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seen as one or not. And I think there was two things that came

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to mind as you were talking. One was, there's someone on

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Instagram, who

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Carrie-Ann Wade: say who shall remain nameless, but they will.

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But they really wind me up, because they're

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constantly talking on the daily about how they're really

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different. And they think differently, and they do stuff

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differently. And that's part of their USP that they're trying to

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sell. But then what they do is what I see about 20 million

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other people doing on Instagram, and I can see that they've

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basically done all the courses that these other gurus have

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done, and then re pedaling it with their own thing. But there

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aren't Yeah, I'm doing it differently. And I know I'm so

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close so many times just applying again. But are you

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really are you really? What's your evidence you do

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differently? Because I've just seen so and so's course you're

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on, say the same thing.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I'm going through the formulaic approach

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to doing things differently the same way as everyone else. Yeah,

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is different. Yeah.

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So so there's that thing around that person

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absolutely is trying to position themselves as a thought leader,

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but in my opinion is bringing nothing new different going back

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to our equation. questionable whether they're an expert,

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definitely not unique. Not sure I've seen much evidence,

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therefore,

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Carrie-Ann Wade: I am loving the the equation says

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my mental images I was doing that was you know, in

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Charlie in the Chocolate Factory when they're weighing eggs, and

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it's like deciding whether it meets the equation where they go

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around the good or bad sheet. That was what was happening. So

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going down the bad

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Carrie-Ann Wade: shoot. A person who shall remain nameless is

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shooting down that bad shoot as we speak now, because they've

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been through that our equation. Yeah. Equation machine. But

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then, on the kind of flip side, I've worked with

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leaders in the past, and we've looked at things like for

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leadership and what is what is their view? How can they

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differentiate themselves, when they're applying for new jobs,

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for example, when they're trying to demonstrate and raise the

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organizational profile? So it's not necessarily come, you know,

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hasn't come from the point of ego but it's come from a point

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of how do I build the reputation of this organization in this

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great stuff that we do? And we tap into what is what is the

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stuff that you're doing that you could talk about confidently and

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that is showing that it's a bit different to what everyone else

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is doing? And so yeah, it's it's a I've went off on a slight

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tangent there I've

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Carrie-Ann Wade: still got visions of the Charlie and the

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Chocolate Factory equation machine

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up so here's we're saying it's it's a bit of both

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you you need to do a bit of self reflection and recognition of

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whether you want to be a thought leader or not. But just you

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saying that you are so without these other conditions being

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met? Doesn't doesn't make you absolutely and you are more

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likely to be a stronger thought leader if other people back you

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up and refer to you as such.

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Carrie-Ann Wade: Yes, definitely. Okay, that's a good

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summary Lee.

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So, organizational positions because We talked

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about the organizational benefits of supporting or having

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thought leaders within their midst. But is it something that

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you should be seeking agreement from, or at least alignment with

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an organization when you're starting to develop that thing

Lee Griffith: 00:20:19

that only you think about? I mean, in

Lee Griffith: 00:20:23

Carrie-Ann Wade: all honesty, I think if there is organizational

Lee Griffith: 00:20:26

alignment there, then that is clearly going to be much easier.

Lee Griffith: 00:20:30

Yeah, kind of position to be in. And I have to say, I have worked

Lee Griffith: 00:20:34

for organizations, where there has been expert clinicians who

Lee Griffith: 00:20:40

have very strongly held views backed up by research and

Lee Griffith: 00:20:44

evidence, in some cases, about certain maybe clinical things,

Lee Griffith: 00:20:50

treatments or whatever, who are very vocal about that, and a

Lee Griffith: 00:20:54

definitely seen as thought leaders, but his view goes

Lee Griffith: 00:20:59

against maybe the organizational view, because it challenges

Lee Griffith: 00:21:03

perhaps, like NICE guidelines, if we're talking about

Lee Griffith: 00:21:06

healthcare, for example. So it may be challenges, the accepted

Lee Griffith: 00:21:09

view of how things should be done. And that can become really

Lee Griffith: 00:21:13

difficult, because it's, yeah, it's just really hard, isn't it

Lee Griffith: 00:21:17

and marry up the T where organization it's like, well, as

Lee Griffith: 00:21:21

an organization, we're delivering this type of service

Lee Griffith: 00:21:24

or treatment someday, but we have an individual who's well

Lee Griffith: 00:21:28

renowned thought leader who actually says almost the

Lee Griffith: 00:21:31

opposite. And that I'd say that does become a challenge. And

Lee Griffith: 00:21:34

that is quite hard, I think to I don't think there is a balance

Lee Griffith: 00:21:38

to be struck sometimes. But it is just quite hard to operate in

Lee Griffith: 00:21:41

that space. Because obviously, if that thought leader is coming

Lee Griffith: 00:21:45

from a place of expertise with the evidence to back it up, why

Lee Griffith: 00:21:49

should they not be? Yeah, sharing that? So I think

Lee Griffith: 00:21:53

sometimes it might be situational dependent, in terms

Lee Griffith: 00:21:57

of how much risk or you know, how much challenge there might

Lee Griffith: 00:22:01

be in that space. But I do think it is a really tricky one. And

Lee Griffith: 00:22:04

obviously, the benefits for an organization, and the

Lee Griffith: 00:22:08

individual, when there's alignment is probably more

Lee Griffith: 00:22:10

exposure, and more opportunities for that person's viewpoint to

Lee Griffith: 00:22:15

to be out there and influencing and impacting things. Whereas if

Lee Griffith: 00:22:18

there isn't that alignment with the organization, you might feel

Lee Griffith: 00:22:22

like there's a sort of butting of heads a lot of the time which

Lee Griffith: 00:22:25

which, yeah, is difficult.

Lee Griffith: 00:22:27

And we saw that in the pandemic actually didn't, we

Lee Griffith: 00:22:30

were, again, the health sector, but also in other sectors where

Lee Griffith: 00:22:34

there was the the, on anti vaxxers, versus the vaxxers. And

Lee Griffith: 00:22:39

evidence of that, and yeah, just even policies and procedures in

Lee Griffith: 00:22:44

the health service and whether people agree to it or not.

Lee Griffith: 00:22:47

Carrie-Ann Wade: And the view of the scientists and the health

Lee Griffith: 00:22:49

care professionals sometimes not always align them, but more

Lee Griffith: 00:22:52

often than not them aligning, but the views of government

Lee Griffith: 00:22:55

being quite different. So, you know, and there is always a

Lee Griffith: 00:22:58

space isn't there for constructive challenge. So I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:23:01

not saying everything should always be in a space where

Lee Griffith: 00:23:04

everyone agrees. But I think just depending on the topic, it

Lee Griffith: 00:23:08

can potentially be more challenging if there isn't that

Lee Griffith: 00:23:11

alignment there with the organization. But it will depend

Lee Griffith: 00:23:15

on how the organization chooses to react to that, I think,

Lee Griffith: 00:23:18

because if you're in an organization who is quite open

Lee Griffith: 00:23:22

minded, and about learning and growth and development, and is

Lee Griffith: 00:23:25

maybe in in a position where they feel better able to take

Lee Griffith: 00:23:28

risks, they're probably going to be less upset by having a

Lee Griffith: 00:23:33

thought leader in their midst that thinks something slightly

Lee Griffith: 00:23:35

different to them than an organization who is perhaps

Lee Griffith: 00:23:38

maybe not in that space and not as forward thinking and who

Lee Griffith: 00:23:41

would see it all as a kind of, you know, issue to be managed

Lee Griffith: 00:23:45

rather than something to maybe flex and roll with. Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:23:48

So we're saying we don't think it's it's not

Lee Griffith: 00:23:52

imperative that you get organizational sign off. It may

Lee Griffith: 00:23:56

be wise, if you think that particularly from a media

Lee Griffith: 00:23:58

reputational point of view that there's likely to be something

Lee Griffith: 00:24:01

of interest. And of course, organizations may wish to use it

Lee Griffith: 00:24:05

for their own benefit as well. And therefore, we'd be keen to

Lee Griffith: 00:24:08

help support promote your views and the views to claim them as

Lee Griffith: 00:24:13

their own as such.

Lee Griffith: 00:24:15

Carrie-Ann Wade: Claim who is one of their own, at least if

Lee Griffith: 00:24:17

they can't claim the views as their own?

Lee Griffith: 00:24:19

Yeah, yeah. So I think there is something about

Lee Griffith: 00:24:22

particularly if you're going into maybe a more public

Lee Griffith: 00:24:26

platform, and I don't just mean, traditional media, but if you're

Lee Griffith: 00:24:31

sitting up online, you're writing publishing papers, you

Lee Griffith: 00:24:35

might be doing a podcast you might be actually this is a

Lee Griffith: 00:24:39

really good tangent, but you are someone who works for an

Lee Griffith: 00:24:43

organization. You talk about leadership stuff outside of

Lee Griffith: 00:24:48

being in an organization, you run this podcast, you have

Lee Griffith: 00:24:51

another podcast, you do events and whatnot, where you talk

Lee Griffith: 00:24:54

about your views on the leadership world. Have you

Lee Griffith: 00:24:57

married that with your kind of organization? Should your

Lee Griffith: 00:25:00

positioning and your professional positioning.

Lee Griffith: 00:25:03

Carrie-Ann Wade: So I would say first step that I've been really

Lee Griffith: 00:25:06

transparent about the fact that I do it. So I'm not trying to

Lee Griffith: 00:25:08

hide it, which would be ridiculous to do. And because I

Lee Griffith: 00:25:10

share it everywhere, round out that would be a bit awkward. But

Lee Griffith: 00:25:18

um, so So I think there's something about being upfront

Lee Griffith: 00:25:21

about that, I think the things that I talk about in terms of my

Lee Griffith: 00:25:24

leadership experience, are fully aligned to my own values and my

Lee Griffith: 00:25:30

own thinking around leadership. So I feel like I'm acting with

Lee Griffith: 00:25:33

integrity, because I would like to think as much as humanly

Lee Griffith: 00:25:37

possible. The conversations I have with you on this podcast,

Lee Griffith: 00:25:40

for example, would reflect the way I would operate as a leader

Lee Griffith: 00:25:44

in my organization. Now, if my organization has got an issue

Lee Griffith: 00:25:48

with the way that I operate as a leader, then I think that's

Lee Griffith: 00:25:50

probably the thing for them to address more so than the

Lee Griffith: 00:25:54

conversations I'm having in this space and in other spaces

Lee Griffith: 00:25:57

publicly. And it has been an interesting kind of ride to be

Lee Griffith: 00:26:02

on to be honest with you, because I've had a chief

Lee Griffith: 00:26:06

executive who I've worked for Chief Executive, he's been quite

Lee Griffith: 00:26:09

impressed that I've taken the time to put myself out there and

Lee Griffith: 00:26:12

do all of this stuff on top of what I do as a leader in my

Lee Griffith: 00:26:16

organization, and seen it as a good thing for the organization.

Lee Griffith: 00:26:19

Because if I'm getting invited to talk about this topic, I

Lee Griffith: 00:26:23

might well also say that I'm a leader for my organization, and

Lee Griffith: 00:26:28

that's good for them to get them some coverage. I've worked for a

Lee Griffith: 00:26:31

chief executive who has been even more proactive and shared

Lee Griffith: 00:26:35

some of my thinking and my comments in the public sphere

Lee Griffith: 00:26:38

around leadership, but probably because our leadership values

Lee Griffith: 00:26:43

and behaviors aligned. So it resonated with them. So, you

Lee Griffith: 00:26:46

know, I think in the early days, I probably was a bit more

Lee Griffith: 00:26:50

nervous about it, because but it was probably more being nervous

Lee Griffith: 00:26:54

about putting myself out there, rather than what's my

Lee Griffith: 00:26:58

organization going to think I think it was more of an extra

Lee Griffith: 00:27:00

extra cent echo can't say the word crisis about what is anyone

Lee Griffith: 00:27:04

gonna think? And why would they think that I've got something

Lee Griffith: 00:27:06

worth listening to, to, you know, in this space, but sort of

Lee Griffith: 00:27:10

as your confidence grows, and you do it more? Yeah, I remember

Lee Griffith: 00:27:14

you and I aged, I've kind of got into that space of like, this is

Lee Griffith: 00:27:17

what I think taking big fear with you. I'm only saying it

Lee Griffith: 00:27:21

based on my own experiences. And I'm not professing to be an

Lee Griffith: 00:27:24

expert in anything in particular, but this is a topic

Lee Griffith: 00:27:27

that really interests me that I feel like I've got something

Lee Griffith: 00:27:29

valuable to say about

Lee Griffith: 00:27:31

obviously, you wouldn't you wouldn't meet our

Lee Griffith: 00:27:32

equation, then. I

Lee Griffith: 00:27:34

Carrie-Ann Wade: wouldn't know. But I've never professed to be a

Lee Griffith: 00:27:39

thought leader. So. So yeah, absolutely. And I don't know if

Lee Griffith: 00:27:43

anybody else would ever think I was one either. So.

Lee Griffith: 00:27:48

So we've we've touched on this a few times

Lee Griffith: 00:27:51

about the the it's made it into the equation, this uniqueness,

Lee Griffith: 00:27:55

this different way of thinking. So we know Thought Leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:27:58

isn't about just parroting the views of everybody else are

Lee Griffith: 00:28:01

saying the same stuff as everyone else, you're just an

Lee Griffith: 00:28:04

amplifier of someone else's fault leadership in doing that,

Lee Griffith: 00:28:07

some people mistake that as thinking, I must be

Lee Griffith: 00:28:13

controversial, or put the cat amongst the pigeons team to be

Lee Griffith: 00:28:19

heard and to make my view difference in order to be

Lee Griffith: 00:28:23

positioned in this way. So I'm interested in your views on

Lee Griffith: 00:28:28

being purposefully and intentionally controversial, as

Lee Griffith: 00:28:32

a way to be that differentiator.

Lee Griffith: 00:28:36

Carrie-Ann Wade: So there is something for me around don't

Lee Griffith: 00:28:40

just say something to provoke a reaction. So I can see there

Lee Griffith: 00:28:45

might be a desire to be intentional in sort of being

Lee Griffith: 00:28:48

controversial and being different. But if you're just

Lee Griffith: 00:28:52

doing it for doing it sake, then I don't think that adds any

Lee Griffith: 00:28:55

value to anyone to be honest, or for anyone to be honest. So

Lee Griffith: 00:28:59

there's something for me about having the courage of your

Lee Griffith: 00:29:02

convictions. So if you genuinely think something, that you have

Lee Griffith: 00:29:07

the evidence and data to back it up and demonstrate your points,

Lee Griffith: 00:29:11

and it might so happen to be controversial, and against the

Lee Griffith: 00:29:15

grain of what most people are saying in that space, then have

Lee Griffith: 00:29:19

the courage of those convictions and say it because you know,

Lee Griffith: 00:29:22

you've got everything behind you to back it up. But if you're

Lee Griffith: 00:29:25

just saying something thrown it out there to get somebody to

Lee Griffith: 00:29:28

react to you and you know, create that reaction and then

Lee Griffith: 00:29:32

that's when I don't think that's the space that you should really

Lee Griffith: 00:29:35

be operating in because I don't think that shows enough

Lee Griffith: 00:29:38

integrity, or expertise in your field or evidence or any of

Lee Griffith: 00:29:42

those things or your uniqueness to be honest because there are

Lee Griffith: 00:29:46

women hundreds of people out there who also just say the

Lee Griffith: 00:29:48

opposite of what everyone else is saying for the sake of it and

Lee Griffith: 00:29:51

who actually thrive on being controversial. So, you know, we

Lee Griffith: 00:29:54

think of the Donald Trump's of the world Katie Hopkins, other

Lee Griffith: 00:29:58

people who Quite frankly, I can only think are just saying the

Lee Griffith: 00:30:03

opposite of everyone else to be different. I think if you said

Lee Griffith: 00:30:06

to Donald Trump, you'll win the election by saying the sky is

Lee Griffith: 00:30:12

yellow, not blue, then, you know, possibly he'd say, or he

Lee Griffith: 00:30:16

wouldn't, because they think well, I want to say the opposite

Lee Griffith: 00:30:18

of what you say. So yeah, I just think, don't do it for doing it

Lee Griffith: 00:30:22

sake. But if you have got something that's really valid

Lee Griffith: 00:30:26

and important to contribute to a conversation, and you have the

Lee Griffith: 00:30:30

courage of your convictions and the evidence behind you, then

Lee Griffith: 00:30:33

then definitely do it. But I would also caveat that with,

Lee Griffith: 00:30:37

often if you are that voice of difference, don't take it

Lee Griffith: 00:30:42

personally, if people don't react to that in the way you

Lee Griffith: 00:30:44

might expect to, because sometimes being that voice of

Lee Griffith: 00:30:48

difference and saying something that might be slightly

Lee Griffith: 00:30:50

controversial, despite having the evidence behind you to back

Lee Griffith: 00:30:54

it up, isn't going to go down well with everybody, because

Lee Griffith: 00:30:57

people won't hold the same views as you necessarily. So don't

Lee Griffith: 00:31:00

take it personally if people go on the attack a bit. And also

Lee Griffith: 00:31:05

don't attack back because I think you just make your

Lee Griffith: 00:31:09

argument less valid. If you then get into a sort of tit for tat,

Lee Griffith: 00:31:12

I've said something, somebody doesn't like it. And now we're

Lee Griffith: 00:31:15

just gonna get in a spat about the fact that something they

Lee Griffith: 00:31:17

don't like, because you're sort of not doing justice to the

Lee Griffith: 00:31:21

point that you're trying to make. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:31:23

I think that's that's the important bit. It's

Lee Griffith: 00:31:27

the this, there's almost three, three elements. For me, there's

Lee Griffith: 00:31:31

that test of in having this view? Is it being true to my

Lee Griffith: 00:31:37

values in having this view? Am I being clear in my beliefs and my

Lee Griffith: 00:31:43

purpose in sharing this view? And in having this view? Am I

Lee Griffith: 00:31:49

going to be willing to defend and argue my position? come what

Lee Griffith: 00:31:54

may? Or am I going to retreat at the first sign of someone not

Lee Griffith: 00:31:58

agreeing, because I want to be a people pleaser, or whatever. So

Lee Griffith: 00:32:01

I think there's there's a difference isn't there between

Lee Griffith: 00:32:03

attacking back where you can be rude and hostile and name call

Lee Griffith: 00:32:07

versus defending your position by by saying, this is the

Lee Griffith: 00:32:11

evidence. This is why I think the way I think this is what I

Lee Griffith: 00:32:14

mean, I respect your position. And I asked you to respect mine.

Lee Griffith: 00:32:19

Carrie-Ann Wade: Yeah, that respect that I think is really

Lee Griffith: 00:32:21

important, isn't it. And again, part of positioning yourself in

Lee Griffith: 00:32:25

that thought leadership space is that you've have to be

Lee Griffith: 00:32:27

respectful of other people's views as well. And you're not

Lee Griffith: 00:32:30

going to be the only thought leader, if that's the label

Lee Griffith: 00:32:33

we're using that's operating in that sphere of interest that

Lee Griffith: 00:32:37

you've got. So you have to be respectful of other people's

Lee Griffith: 00:32:40

views, as well. And I think that will go a long way to landing

Lee Griffith: 00:32:42

you and positioning you Well, as a thought leader, actually,

Lee Griffith: 00:32:46

I think there's something that was coming up as

Lee Griffith: 00:32:49

you were talking, and you've you raised the examples of Trump,

Lee Griffith: 00:32:53

Katie Hopkins, possibly you could even say someone like

Lee Griffith: 00:32:56

suella Braverman with some of the positions she's taken

Lee Griffith: 00:32:58

recently, where they've come from it as a way to try and be

Lee Griffith: 00:33:03

popular and to try and build their connection and community

Lee Griffith: 00:33:07

with people who might think like that, even if it isn't

Lee Griffith: 00:33:11

necessarily aligned with their real beliefs or aligned with

Lee Griffith: 00:33:14

their values. And, and, and, and I wonder whether it kind of all

Lee Griffith: 00:33:19

it always comes back to to legacy because the the true

Lee Griffith: 00:33:22

thought leaders build a, the fruit of that wealth of evidence

Lee Griffith: 00:33:28

that they've got, they build that legacy that in years to

Lee Griffith: 00:33:33

come, they can be seen as a thought leader in that position,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:36

or in that whatever the issue is that they've they've been

Lee Griffith: 00:33:41

positioning on, versus people who are populace, but then

Lee Griffith: 00:33:45

they've probably seen as a bit flaky because they chop and

Lee Griffith: 00:33:47

change their mind, depending on the way and maybe that's how you

Lee Griffith: 00:33:51

identify a real thought leader with someone who's trying to

Lee Griffith: 00:33:53

just be popular.

Lee Griffith: 00:33:54

Carrie-Ann Wade: Definitely. And the thing I was thinking,

Lee Griffith: 00:33:56

particularly when I mentioned, Katie Hopkins, but there are

Lee Griffith: 00:34:00

others. And Brotherman is a good example of that. There's

Lee Griffith: 00:34:03

something about the people who are in that space, because they

Lee Griffith: 00:34:07

just want to stay in the public eye. And so maybe they're being

Lee Griffith: 00:34:11

controversial or sharing an opinion on something because it

Lee Griffith: 00:34:14

keeps themselves relevant in their own eyes rather than the

Lee Griffith: 00:34:17

eyes of anyone else. And sort of believing in their own hype a

Lee Griffith: 00:34:20

little bit. And I think that's, you know, that's not being a

Lee Griffith: 00:34:23

thought leader. That's that is pretending that you're a thought

Lee Griffith: 00:34:27

leader, but it's about the clarity of purpose, isn't it?

Lee Griffith: 00:34:30

Like, why are you operating in that space as a thought leader?

Lee Griffith: 00:34:33

And if it's just about hyping yourself up and keeping yourself

Lee Griffith: 00:34:37

in the public sphere, then you're not doing it for the

Lee Griffith: 00:34:40

right reasons. And therefore really, can you be

Lee Griffith: 00:34:42

one? Yeah, yeah. That if your aim is I'm trying

Lee Griffith: 00:34:47

to stay relevant. Yeah. You're not positioning yourself as a

Lee Griffith: 00:34:50

thought leader. You're trying to win a popularity contest? Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:34:55

Yeah. Okay. I'm conscious of our time but I want us to get some

Lee Griffith: 00:34:58

practicalities in in place. So what does thought leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:35:03

look like in practice? How do you start to figure out maybe

Lee Griffith: 00:35:08

what it is you're going to be known for? Are there tools and

Lee Griffith: 00:35:11

channels that you should consider using? Like, where?

Lee Griffith: 00:35:14

Where do you go? If you actually yeah, I've got some views. I've

Lee Griffith: 00:35:17

got some evidence. I think it's pretty unique. Tick, tick, tick,

Lee Griffith: 00:35:22

you're in the right column.

Lee Griffith: 00:35:25

Carrie-Ann Wade: We're meeting all aspects of the equation.

Lee Griffith: 00:35:27

Yeah.

Lee Griffith: 00:35:28

Where do you go from here to start to execute a

Lee Griffith: 00:35:33

plan that is sharing your views more broadly,

Lee Griffith: 00:35:36

Carrie-Ann Wade: I think there's something for me about clarity

Lee Griffith: 00:35:38

of purpose and message and all of that. So this is going back

Lee Griffith: 00:35:42

to some of the stuff we've talked about, about around

Lee Griffith: 00:35:44

communications and about strategy, I think so what's

Lee Griffith: 00:35:48

what's your Have you got that clarity on purpose on message

Lee Griffith: 00:35:51

and and what it is that you are contributing in this space that

Lee Griffith: 00:35:54

you've chosen to, to be in. And I think there'll be some natural

Lee Griffith: 00:35:57

ways that you will decide because there'll be an alignment

Lee Griffith: 00:36:00

of a special interest, or there'll be something that is

Lee Griffith: 00:36:03

aligned to your, you know, professional expertise, that

Lee Griffith: 00:36:06

will be the area that you are deciding to focus on as a

Lee Griffith: 00:36:09

thought leader. And that being really clear on that message.

Lee Griffith: 00:36:13

And the evidence that you've got to back it up, I think is hugely

Lee Griffith: 00:36:15

important, because as you've said, the moment you put

Lee Griffith: 00:36:18

something into the public domain, you have to have the

Lee Griffith: 00:36:21

ability to defend your position on them. Because there will be

Lee Griffith: 00:36:24

someone who will disagree with you, or or challenging. I think

Lee Griffith: 00:36:28

there's something for me about really working out who it is

Lee Griffith: 00:36:32

that you are trying to reach with your message. So have you

Lee Griffith: 00:36:37

got your intended audience in mind? And are they people that

Lee Griffith: 00:36:41

you are trying to influence to do something differently, for

Lee Griffith: 00:36:46

example, or to take action are the people that you're trying to

Lee Griffith: 00:36:50

educate around a specific topic to get them to understand more

Lee Griffith: 00:36:54

about it or a different point of view? So being really clear on

Lee Griffith: 00:36:58

the who you're trying to reach as a thought leader, I think is

Lee Griffith: 00:37:00

also very important. Yeah. And that can be as niche as you want

Lee Griffith: 00:37:04

it to be, I think, to be honest with you, depending on on the

Lee Griffith: 00:37:08

area of your expertise, and what you're talking about. And then

Lee Griffith: 00:37:12

the bit for me about the sort of, so where do you show up,

Lee Griffith: 00:37:15

it's kind of where do they show up, because there's absolutely

Lee Griffith: 00:37:18

no point in you having an interesting, innovative, unique,

Lee Griffith: 00:37:22

evidence based view on something that you want to share into the

Lee Griffith: 00:37:25

world, and it not reaching the people that you're trying to

Lee Griffith: 00:37:28

share it with. Because that will get you nowhere. So you don't

Lee Griffith: 00:37:32

want to just be, you know, going off putting it wherever. So I

Lee Griffith: 00:37:35

think there's something about doing that research around where

Lee Griffith: 00:37:38

the audience you're trying to reach actually showing up, and

Lee Griffith: 00:37:41

then looking at your opportunities to show up in that

Lee Griffith: 00:37:44

same space. So if it's that there are some particular groups

Lee Griffith: 00:37:48

on LinkedIn, for example, that are heavily focused on this

Lee Griffith: 00:37:52

particular topic, then that might be the space where you

Lee Griffith: 00:37:55

want to start contributing your thoughts and ideas? If it is,

Lee Griffith: 00:37:59

the people, you're trying to reach a wall read in a certain

Lee Griffith: 00:38:02

professional or trade journal, do you want to try and pitch

Lee Griffith: 00:38:05

something in that space? And get published in that space? Do you

Lee Griffith: 00:38:09

want to, you know, look at those websites and start contributing

Lee Griffith: 00:38:13

comments digitally, to pieces that are about similar sorts of

Lee Griffith: 00:38:16

topics? So I think it's, it's pretty much about how you'd work

Lee Griffith: 00:38:20

out a good comps plan, if I'm honest with you, around how you

Lee Griffith: 00:38:24

would approach some of that. So. So yeah, that would be my

Lee Griffith: 00:38:27

initial thinking around the sort of practicalities of how you

Lee Griffith: 00:38:31

start to show up. And where but I'm sure you've got some extras

Lee Griffith: 00:38:35

to Adly?

Lee Griffith: 00:38:36

No, I mean, I think that was that was pretty

Lee Griffith: 00:38:38

comprehensive. But I suppose the the thing that was going through

Lee Griffith: 00:38:42

my mind was that it doesn't need to be this or, you know, you

Lee Griffith: 00:38:46

don't need to think of it on this big macro scale. either.

Lee Griffith: 00:38:52

You don't, it doesn't need to be you've got to do a TEDx talk to

Lee Griffith: 00:38:56

millions of people, or you've got to be in the national media,

Lee Griffith: 00:39:00

getting the attention it can be, where are my professional

Lee Griffith: 00:39:05

networks? And can I go and talk at a conference? Or am I around

Lee Griffith: 00:39:09

a table where I can share some of these views and input? All

Lee Griffith: 00:39:13

the stuff you said about comments is a really is great.

Lee Griffith: 00:39:18

That's I mean, it's all goes back to community and

Lee Griffith: 00:39:20

connection, doesn't it? And substack interestingly, I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:39:25

finding to be quite a good space that I've subscribed to a couple

Lee Griffith: 00:39:30

of people who I would position as thought leaders, and they are

Lee Griffith: 00:39:34

testing their ideas out there with communities that are

Lee Griffith: 00:39:37

interested in what they've got to say, and allowing comment and

Lee Griffith: 00:39:41

discussion on theories that they're developing and stuff

Lee Griffith: 00:39:44

like that. And so that's a nice, safe space that they're getting

Lee Griffith: 00:39:48

input into their ideas, but also sharing their thoughts. They're

Lee Griffith: 00:39:51

not, you know, they're not necessarily rocking up at news

Lee Griffith: 00:39:54

at 10 or in the newspaper. But they've they found their people

Lee Griffith: 00:39:59

as it were So who are interested in that topic, and they are

Lee Griffith: 00:40:03

academically starting to discuss stuff in a different

Lee Griffith: 00:40:07

environment. So I think there are loads of different spaces

Lee Griffith: 00:40:10

you could use. And it just goes back. And she says, like, what's

Lee Griffith: 00:40:14

the why? What's the what's the purpose? Can you can you defend

Lee Griffith: 00:40:18

what it is you're talking about.

Lee Griffith: 00:40:20

Carrie-Ann Wade: And I think there's something really

Lee Griffith: 00:40:23

powerful about it being a discussion. And taking away from

Lee Griffith: 00:40:27

this, like, oh, I have to have a big broadcast piece, that's me

Lee Griffith: 00:40:30

telling the world something in 1000, word long essay, or

Lee Griffith: 00:40:36

whatever. And that actually, it is about that connection in that

Lee Griffith: 00:40:38

discussion. Because if you genuinely want to influence and

Lee Griffith: 00:40:41

impact something as a thought leader, you're not going to be

Lee Griffith: 00:40:44

able to do that just in one way. So I do like what you said about

Lee Griffith: 00:40:48

that connection, that collaboration that come in

Lee Griffith: 00:40:50

together in spaces with people who are interested in similar

Lee Griffith: 00:40:54

things to you who might not have the same point of view. And we'd

Lee Griffith: 00:40:57

be interested in hearing what difference you're bringing to

Lee Griffith: 00:41:00

the table. I feel like that's a really important part of it.

Lee Griffith: 00:41:03

Because you're right, people can think it's about I've got to get

Lee Griffith: 00:41:05

the big article published in this class for that. Yeah. And

Lee Griffith: 00:41:10

it's, it's definitely for me more about how you can influence

Lee Griffith: 00:41:14

and engage people through conversation discussion, sharing

Lee Griffith: 00:41:18

your point of view, rather than like you say, I'm just going to

Lee Griffith: 00:41:22

tell you like it is and that's it.

Lee Griffith: 00:41:25

Perfect. Well, thank you for a very engaging

Lee Griffith: 00:41:30

discussion and for your views. Thank you for our own little bit

Lee Griffith: 00:41:34

of thought leadership as we devised our own trademarked

Lee Griffith: 00:41:39

equation.

Lee Griffith: 00:41:43

Carrie-Ann Wade: I love it to be ripped apart by your husband

Lee Griffith: 00:41:45

after that's not a proper equation.

Lee Griffith: 00:41:50

And and don't forget to hop over to substack

Lee Griffith: 00:41:54

if you're not already subscribed, because you will get

Lee Griffith: 00:41:58

a little email from Well, it'd be made this week because I fled

Lee Griffith: 00:42:01

this topic. So I'll have some further musings that I might

Lee Griffith: 00:42:05

want to share. I might even do a lucky little doodle, you might

Lee Griffith: 00:42:08

actually get like some kind of I feel like the Johnny ball. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:42:12

here it is. Yeah. Oh, I might just not bother because I might

Lee Griffith: 00:42:17

forget, but they'll say I'm managing expectations here.

Lee Griffith: 00:42:23

Anyway, we will see you again next week. Thanks for listening.

Lee Griffith: 00:42:30

Don't forget to hit follow to make sure you get the next

Lee Griffith: 00:42:33

episode. And if today's discussion resonated, please

Lee Griffith: 00:42:35

leave a review on Apple podcasts.

Lee Griffith: 00:42:38

Carrie-Ann Wade: We also have a substack community where you can

Lee Griffith: 00:42:40

get behind the scenes info, Ask Us Anything session and build

Lee Griffith: 00:42:44

your network with like minded leaders. Visit how to take the

Lee Griffith: 00:42:47

lead.substack.com To find out more. And

Lee Griffith: 00:42:50

if you want to work with us to challenge and

Lee Griffith: 00:42:51

change leadership in your organization. Get in touch by

Lee Griffith: 00:42:54

dropping us an email for how to take the lead@gmail.com or DM us

Lee Griffith: 00:42:58

on the socials. Until next week. Get out there and take the lead